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Marcello Malpighi (1628-1694) -- 19 Dr. V.B. Panicker

Dr. Shweta Tyagi - Understanding the Regulation of Cell Cycle ------------ 21

Studying Physics Prof. S.S. Verma

Biju Dharmapalan

Behavior Brief - A Round-up of Recent Discoveries in Behavior Research - Part I --------------------- 24 Dr. A.R.S. Menon

11 Science of the Month --------------- 30 N.S. Arun Kumar Cryotherapy: An Emerging Area in Medicine Dr. S. Dileesh

Biological Control of Soil-Borne Plant Pathogens --------------------- 38 H. Noorulla, Praveenkumar Yadahalli, Suresh Patil and Manjunath Hubbali

14 Prof. E.C.G. Sudarshan – A Great Living Physicist G.K. Rajesh

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A Twist with Mischeif in a Chemistry Class Room ------------- 44 Dr. Chaganty Krishna Kumari

Craford Prize - A Complementary to Nobel Prize ----------------------- 46 Biju Dharmapalan

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Prof. E.C.G. Sudarshan – A Great Living Physicist G.K. Rajesh Professor E.C.G. Sudarshan is one of the greatest living physicists. He was born in Puthuppally, Kottayam district in Kerala. After obtaining Masters degree from Madras University and a brief spell at TIFR, Mumbai he moved to University of Rochester in New York with Robert Marshak as a doctoral student. His Ph.D. work turned out to be one of the most important theoretical contributions to physics: ‘V-A theory of weak interactions’, which made him and Marshak famous. Later Sudarshan turned his attention to quantum optics and made many remarkable discoveries including that of ‘Tachyons’- particles faster than light. Prof. Sudarshan was nominated for the Nobel Prize more than once but never received it. Having received the 2010 Dirac Medal1,generally held as a precursor to Nobel; his students and well wishers believe that the Nobel Prize will come in search of him sooner or later. At 82, Prof.Sudarshan is still active in research and teaching at University of Texas at Austin and decorates many distinguished positions around the globe. A magnetic personality, listening him talking is a pleasant and enlightening experience. Prof. Sudrashan in conversation with Shri G.K. Rajesh, Research Scholar, Centre for Development Studies, Thiruvananthapuram.

Rajesh: Prof. Sudarshan, You started your career before independence and have seen the evolution of science in India. What is your assessment of the state of scientific research in India? Prof rof.. Sudarshan: When plants grow, they grow. You like roses to grow and thorns not to grow. But then they come together. So you cannot say that science is doing all the right things. But the number of scientists today compared with when we 1

The Dirac Medal of the ICTP is given each year by the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics (ICTP) in honour of physicist P.A.M. Dirac. The award, given each year on August 8 (Dirac’s birthday), was first awarded in 1985.

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INDIA were students is amazing. There were no scientists those days. There were some names people mentioned but there were no scientists. The people who taught us were people who learnt a little more and sometimes did not know very much more. But now there are scientists everywhere. The amount of scientific research that is being carried out now and the level at which it is being carried out is very high. But could it be better? Of course it could be. Whenever you produce things according to a government plan or something like that rather than organic growth, then there is always a case of over-building. There are big national laboratories which do not do anything. There is a joke that somebody went to NPL, National Physical Laboratory to investigate the research institution. ‘How is that place?’ someone asked ‘The place is dead’ ‘But isn’t there any stink about it?’ ‘No no, it is air conditioned’ NPL did not do a worthwhile thing at all for first few decades of its existence. Nevertheless British had a NPL and we too wanted to have one; same name. But at that time the universities were not given any money. No research in the universities. By the time you get your masters degree that is the end of the thing. There is no more. The other people who taught us were also having master’s degree only. Now it s very different because there are so many people who have Ph.D.; not only Ph.D. but they continue to do research. So the level of scientific research has increased but it is not clear that its product is always good.

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In recent times I came to know that there was a whole lot of mathematics done in Kerala. There were people like Neelakanta and Madhava, who did very pioneering work in mathematics which pre-dated Newton and Leibnitz; and calculus was invented or developed here. But we have forgotten about it. Nobody told me about it until recently a friend of mine who is working on history of mathematics in Kerala.

R: How is scientific research in the West performing now? PS PS:: At the present time it is going through a lean phase. When I first went to the US, it was before the time of Sputnik. But it was after the nuclear bomb. So there was a lot of activity that was forgone for nuclear activity and since there were many laboratories, there was money. But then came Sputnik and people suddenly said ‘we thought we are at the top of the world, but we are not. The Russians have sent not just one person but many people (to space)’. So there was a great activity. Everybody said we must really compete with Russians. So there was a lot of money. Gradually that money dried up because Russians were defeated and it was clear that they were not the greatest. So people said, OK, we can relax. So research is now more difficult. The higher education is supported less than it used to be. But still, life goes on. In the US at the present time there is an economic down turn because some way or other we owe a lot of money to the Chinese. When Mr. Clinton was the President the country had a surplus of several trillion dollars. Then came George Bush. He was going to liberate the Arabs

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INDIA from themselves. And he went and spent money like water. By the time he was out, we were eight trillion dollars in debt and that is accelerated because of the interest. So now the deficit is much more, 13 or 14 trillion dollars. And people are complaining that oh! This is because of the fact that we are giving too much money for welfare - social welfare. Therefore we should cut down on social welfare. But the point is that social welfare has nothing to do with this financial deficit. So there was a big budget crisis in the United States. This January (2013), it just straightened out. So the funds for academic research have gone down tremendously. So when you have a down turn in the economy it becomes a cumulative effect. But it is not money alone. It is the quality of people. For example, one of the things which has happened in the US also is that the financial services are making a lot of money and people are attracted towards it. They make a lot of money and you don’t get that much after spending eight years in a laboratory for a Ph.D. Several of my Ph.D students have gone on to financial services.

R: In one of your articles you had commented that Indian researchers in the US start well but deteriorate later in career. Is that true?(Referring to the article2 written by Prof. Sudarshan along with Swadesh M. Mahajan) PS PS:: Well, this is not written by me alone. I wrote it along with a friend of mine who is an ardent Communist. He has diagnosed the problem that the Indian

scientists go along with other scientists and they all do very well. Indians are probably better. But after some time there is a reversal, because these people find that they are not getting ahead. So they get very disillusioned and then get involved more in Indian culture and religious practice and so on. Therefore they stop being productive. All these are his statements and I simply went along with him. This is not true. It is true that people run out of steam after certain point. When you are young you are very adventurous. You want to do things. But after some time you say, well, you have your wife and kids, you have the mortgage to pay. Then you start deviating from the thing and you are no longer as enthusiastic. So you slow down. Not everybody slows down and this is not only with Indians. It is true with other people also. The thrust of our article was that the Indians slow down after certain point because they lose hope-optimism and would then involve themselves in several other activities. This is utter nonsense, even though I signed that article. I continue to do the same kind of thing (that I have been doing). So it is not true for me.

R: We hear a lot about applied sciences and inter-disciplinary research. Is this doing good to fundamental research? PS PS:: Mathematics is of such a nature that it finds relations between things. That is also the nature of physics. Only thing is that we (physicists) don’t think of numbers and symbols and their relationship but we think of everything being connected

2 ‘The Indian Scientist’ some reflections (http://wildcard.ph.utexas.edu/~sudarshan/pub/ 1985_005.pdf)

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INDIA with everything else. There are many people who say that the purpose of a scientist is to unify all the things. But actually that is not true. When we really get into the thing the idea is to eliminate much of the theories (destroy the things) and come to the essence of the thing. Because of the fact that it deals with esoteric things, very often science is thought of as consisting only of esoteric things; of things connected with atom, with the atomic nucleus and big power and all kinds of things. In recent times the advantage of quantum computing is an example in arithmetics. Arithmetics itself is no longer subject to being itself. We use quantum theory to make calculations in arithmetics; complicated arithmetical questions. I was at a recent conference on quantum computing in Bangalore. It was amazing to see how many different disciplines are contained in it and how many different institutions are involved. Many years ago when I went to Bangalore to start a small centre, called Centre for Theoretical Studies, which contained biologists, physicists and other people together, people said this is crazy. There is a department of physics, applied mathematics, electro chemistry etc. Why do you want to have one more? I said they are all different centres. What we want is a centre for theoretical studies; to combine together, to make use of the activities of various people to look at certain things. I am happy to say that the centre grew from strength to strength and like in many cases the strength meant that the thing became un-manageable and it spawned other centres which are now big and flourishing. But this conference showed me that quantum computing is an integrating discipline not just enabling

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you to do information technology but rather use information for its own sake: to find out what is in information, what is the information that you know about? If you know something about the atom, and something about the nucleus you can do many things. But what if you could really find out more about nature itself?

R: You had been very close to Sir C.V. Raman. Known for his dislike to practitioners of theoretical physics, how was your relationship with him? PS PS:: During my first return journey from America in 1962, I wanted to meet Raman because I have never met him. But I have seen him, you know. He used to come to our college hostel and then say ‘I want to give a lecture’. Aha, when Raman wants to give a lecture, you listen. He would give a lecture and then go away. But I wanted to meet him. So someone introduced me to him. He said ‘Sudarshan, come this way. Usually I don’t allow any theoretical physicist to come. I think there is no such thing called theoretical physics. But in your case I am going to make an exemption. You come’. That meeting lasted for about five hours. From that time onwards every time I come home I used to go and meet him. Once he said: ‘I think you know about neutrinos’. I said that I knew a little ‘So I have a question. There must be a lot of neutrinos and they don’t interact with anything else and they hang around. So it would be like smoke and that will scatter light. This will shift the frequency of light. So reddening of light from a

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INDIA distance is due to neutrinos. Can you tell me whether this is true or not’. I said that I was going home for two days after seven years abroad and that I did’nt think I would get very much time to think about it. ‘You can take any book from here. When you come back from Cochin to Madras via Bangalore, I will meet you at the air port”. So that was a command-performance. I had to think up the thing. I could not say ‘well, I don’t know’. So I did think about it and found the answer and told him what happens. He said: ‘I was afraid that you would say the same thing. Thank you’. And then he was talking so much to me, the air plane was delayed by several minutes, for nobody would try to disturb him while he was talking. He was full of energy. R: Y ou have been in research for a very You long time. Will you ever retire from research? PS PS:: Question is often asked, you have been doing physics for such a long timeresearch. Don’t you ever want to stop? The answer is no. I like to breath and breathing is very pleasant. Eating is even more pleasant. But doing physics is a source of permanent joy. About this it is evoking of Shri Narayana Bhattathiri’s3 epic poem (In Sanskrit)

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"Saandraanandaavabod haatmakam Anupamitam Kaaladeshaavadhibhyaam Nirmuktam Nityamuktam Nigamashatasahasrena Nirbhaasyamaanam Aspashtam Drishtamaatre Punarurupurushaarthaatmakam Brahma Tatvam Tattaavadbhaati...” That is the nature of science, that it is a source of permanent inspiration, each time you think you have seen it clearly. Then you see that, that was not it and the final form is even further. Science is a never ending quest and one of the good things of being a theoretical physicist is that your equipment travels with you where ever you go. It is right here (pointing to his head). Therefore the source of this pleasure, this achievement continues for ever and when something is so enjoyable why do you stop doing it? Many of my friends, some of my students who gathered together, who got their Ph.D. with me some 40 or 50 years ago, they all asked me ‘aren’t you ever going to retire?’ I said ‘I am not tired, why should I retire? You may go away and now I can no longer control you and make you do work, but let us not say that everybody is like that. There are going to be more people who will continue their science forever and ever’. G.K. Rajesh Research Scholar Centre for Development Studies Prasanth Nagar, Ulloor Thiruvananthapuram - 695 011 E Mail:[email protected]

3 Melpathur Narayana Bhattathiri was a mathematical linguist (Vyakarana). He is known for his masterpiece, ‘Narayaneeyam’, a devotional composition in praise of Lord Krishna. 4 Meaning: This embodiment of eternal spiritual bliss is beyond any comparison and transcends all limits of time and space. This eternal truth is free of all illusion and is all-pervading, being the root cause of the entire universe. Even the Vedas (the ancient scriptures) cannot fully comprehend or describe it but it can be attained through single-minded devotion by the true devotees. Gist Courtesy: Smt. Padmini Natarajan (http://sanskritdocuments.org)

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