F

DECLASSIt..IIlU

F.d

nutr,orlry

vy

pr{txA

Date

!rcoa/r63

is 6' 3sr,qrt of the.internogation of Dr. forxier\r of the .ogro-.,d"io*-s""tr"r. !x'*dfz -,mrssm*, .r-ofiifiirr, r,tas eohductec). bv^1,6foy rne interrogation C. f,t.r Sig, Cp.iiS.... EURO'E .riuGSBURGr 17trr-i otr, 5oiotil]*igau. at i"ttaehed

',J,lgr'ist

2'

The inte*ogati.on iras oohcluotedin language f,luentry, i",at,crssaniJ

"***t

TICg znq

lnglish; yErssER sSeaki.ng the ,ord.in€,. hae boen retainecl.

No, of i,ages: l0

Dece;lberr 1gU6,

Coi,y

No

t

fd

Distribution ,L.Sir.c. 1.

m

2,

S.

It"'

H and. 1,{. L.

--

5'

6r.

7' B. o

l0-1ji,

J.t

Z,

fi,62. H,6.5.

-s r=

H.71.

,E

L'91r

t\' lSe f--

Ticonr S,iles.

u.s. llt'. 15-18, 19-22,

2t,

I Is= u.s.L.0. ii? $,

ashington.

l )

Director, .i.S,3;.1 Er.ro;e.i

Exteraal-

2/+. Signds

d. liier Offioe. ,id;:dra1ty.

i!,: khkl';i ,l.ir tr46.1u1"r,

via u.s.L.0.

i$"f,

ffi/ $l

DECLASSITIED Authority

al

p,i,n^D*"Wwi - -'

fn-f,brrogatton of FRAM \,,ry.tfSSER, Dr. $tud.ienassessor, f ormer member of Anglo-4msri.can Sectton oKi;/cht,

phil,

Condueted'at /\u,geburg 17-18 0ctober, 19/16 Dy lvt{RI C. Id'r"}E, lst Lt. Slg C. Arrry Searrity Agenqy Europe,

1. X vas dlscharged from-the Gernran arrry in Jruro, 1945 at Ooetting near Bad'-Albling. Af ter ttrat I stayed. in Bnrtku[ehl ai a-piivate tu6t" and applied. for a posttion in the aGtuag Oberschule. -0; i-rd I oame to the oberechule at.Aug$urg as a teaeher oi tatin, Gorrnan and French. At present I teach in the morning and. in the afternoon do privaie tutorlng. liiy ad.dress lg-&gsburg, ,Joharur Roesl.e $trasse 9 bei Hoeg!. W urife is in

BerLtn, addness Bgyrlt4riedrichsfglde, trTard.eeeestra.ssE-to

ry daughter agetr 21 is in Bnrchmuetrl. 2. lihen d,id. you jojn OK[j/Chi?

(il;i;

ai"i"r"t);

r Joined Or$y'chi in 1gl,6, r hed prepared to be a school but cou1d, not get_ a position becawi r'vras not a rvazr party merober. Thereforel r applied. to OKW and. after a brief period 'of tratning enterecl the Anglo-Amerioan section und.er Ntko].ai Rohen. toa_chev,

5,

lvities prior to -your

jofn

born 6 febnraxy t 1ge1 in Hohens alza, posen, and attended, . I was the sohoole in Hohengalzer. S,,hen posen was ced"ed, t; pb1ana aiter ttre Last war, r went and enlered. the export and. impori uranctr l?-tt?r!g"e where I worked until 1g1g.

ln lgTj I nrarriod.*Berta Jaehir of Harnburgr atrd P1. Since I had al,ways i.rished, to become a school teacher.r-I wont to the University of itanrbrrig ;d;;;;a-ine d.octoral exasrlnations nhile maintaining my wife and. chlld., - I paieea the-iirs;---haye 9n9 daughter novr aged.

examtnations Ln 19}lr and the seoond tn 1g16 but cou1d. irot get a jo.b because was not a Nasi. lherefore r applied. to om,,/ctri for a pisitfon.

r

In 19J5i O$y'cti- $$ alou!. !0 meh, at the end. of the vrar, )!0, increase Y/as due pllrytpurry to thi mechine oystems. noheniile6[tJn,' when r entered, consisted, of about 5 men, at the end. of the war, ]5. Ihe sl,ze however, d.l"d. not corryespond to the work d,one. praotfcaf &eiiphorrnent was carried. on by about 5 raen.

Its

Ybat American and British

6,

cod.es

A8erioan Systems. a)

In the vrinter 1%1-19+2,

Ot{il/Chl got

fron Japan a copy of the

:il

->-lflLr

DECLASSIt..IIlU Authoriry I

.2-

i

TOP SECRET

Military Intelligence

Cod.e, and at the sarae tjrne a courter luggage was intercepted in the Bal.kans v,rhich contaired. the enciphering tabLes. So work cou1d. be started., and the rleeiphered. news gave important inforaation about the North Afrj-ean theatre. (!he cod.e vras usecl by the X{ilitary Attache in Cairo). iifter some weeks, nelv tables calile into forcel and. the decipherment took place as foLlows:

As far as I can renember, there vrere 10 tables, 5 of vrhich wero reciprooal. It was a one-letter syatem, each table coverin! the material f,q20 letters, i.e. lr srrbsequeht code words. tr'or each table, there were five ind.icatorg. ?he first problem was to put the lnd.icators into order. fhis was solved. by a statistics of about.the 20 first words of evely telegram (at about this spot a neyr indicator cane into force which hovrever, being enciphered., was not rocogniqable. After the materiaL had thus been put 3"nto ord.er, the very work o{ enciphering could begin. This was rather easy at firet, beaause vre had. sone tel,egraJns fron Baghrl.ad.

with stereotypie beginnings (if I

rernember right: rFron Bullivc'nt to first tabLe had. thus been so3.ved, owing to the the second. table 'n'as soLved.. The indioator of

}1arore11"). After the reciprocaL system also the seoond. phase of the telegrams beginnlng by the first or second table now being d.eciphered., the material for the follovring tables y{as increased. For the next tabl-es stereotypic beginnlngs rrero hardly necessa-rXr on account of the fact that in raany easee tbe continuation of the text couLd aasil-y be conelud.ed, especialLy if the change of an ind.icator took plaee in the midst of a spelled. vrord. For instance, if the last word. of the first indicator was i!, ttre first word of the seeond. table had. to be an. Thus we needed.-Ei the beginning about 100 telegrams for the solffiion of 'a systen:, which rneant that about two r,veeks af ter the lntroduotion of a new systern all tables were so1ved.. Later on we hacl no more stetsotyple beginnings, but trained. by practice, v/e did. not need .them arry more, so that about /O telegrams were sufficient to solve a system. At the tirne of the Rorarnel offensives, the telegrams thus encyphered (they contained. exact d.ata about strengtb, losses, Location) yrere sure1y of highest importance to the High Conirirand (although the work vras never appreciated) and. perhaps it is no chance that the d.efeat of El Alamein coincid.ed. with the fact that the Military dittaehe at Cairo stopped using this code. d.s rre were infonned. later, our activity was comprOmised. by the I'fal,ians, The systerr continued. to be r:sed^ in tbe Baghd,ad. an8 Teheran traffic, and we stiI.l continued to solve the tables, although the vrork got harder and. hard.er, becausd the materlal. decreased consideiably so that we rere fcrced, to nake statistics throrrghout a telegram which had a spocial difficulty as you never knew the phases. .And yet, on the other hand., by this method, it l'ras possible to solve ind.icators in the mid&Le of telegrams. Thras we succeed.ecl in solving also the last system eovering only about 50 telegrams, but the nevrs contajned. therein was of no importance after EI Alanrein. rifhether afte:rrrards the oode was used. but with a aenr klad'of system w&s never fourd out. It was suggestod that the cod.e was rep}aced. by strip c;4phers.

by

Sltita4(,,1 code. I do r,ot r€a6nba.r the narne. The system was of the sarre kind, as the Military Intell"ignece Code (the one cbvering European, the other non-European countrles). fhe co& and. the tables ';rcre cooprcar-ised in ttte'same vray as t-he liriilitrry Intelligence Code. The ne'ns -r,raEl oot of such daoportanee a.s to influqrco the' course of the'irar.

{

C-1i a..gqde of abgut 59r000-rrord"s enc.iphered. b.y tabl,gs (tlro - c) and ono t-,lattcr. hletter 1r, fhc nzuue of tho cod.e vras, I believo, C-'1. The code rvas solvedby

''---

DECLASSITII'D

TOP SECRET the Auswaertiges Amt, the tabres suhsequently soLved. by 0lst/chi, the the viiinter of 19lrj-19t+L in the traff ic of SBaln and s'wltzerlana (trre ne'urs dealing prlncipally with the sJ.act<*List). The

last time in

oode seems

to

have been aband.oned.

d) tabl.es. The code l-ras ooffpronisod. by Japan and, the, tabl.es solved. by OKlt/Chi.

e)

Gfay Cjd.er

The code had been worked, on from cornplete3.y d.eciphened. by 1956.

f)

the beginning and

was

Bronrn Cod.g.

Woik was started. irmed.iate\r after the introdrrction in collaboration with the Auswaertiges Ant vrith the result that the co&e rras nearly solved, vrhen in May, 191+1, we got a copy frpm the Japaneser This was the one code which Justified. the exi-stqnce of the Ar gJ.oAmerican department in the last phase of tbe *ar.

s) strie Qipher After the Marine Bureau (Franke) had. soLved. a system which wssr (a3-though the strip system was l.n tire boginning ratirer primltive) a remarkable feat . be.cause it was a nelr kind. of encypherment whlch had. et first to be recognised., in IVIay lgl*1 a log of strips coveri4g aLl Europeat traffics came i-rr from Japan. After the lntroduction of the new system, soLution vrork get in on a big scale in 0lffi/Chi by Huettenhain and. Dr. Franz, and. jn the Auswaertiges nmt by Kunze, rather in rivaLry ttran collaboration; After several months work, the Auswaertiges Aat succeeded. in Yvork for the

solvlng the system with the aid of HoLlerith maetrines. ' next system was continued an a stiLl bigger scale but wlthout any success. Fro::r the Anglo-/.nerican fupartnentp i{err Hebart SCHIIIIZ 'workod. as liaison. He coulc1 have iusheJ. the lrotrk forv;erdr but he vras hai:pere3 by the incair4.qily an.j' vmity of Dr. 3H*NZ. lL bi8 heJp uould. have been lierr V0EC,EI.E rirho harl- solvccl a siriiler systeu and. who vollrntecrcd. collaborationp vhr-ich ';ra.s refusr:i. e.s He lras/Ednsiilere:i contrretent; rrot being

an acadcmician. Thc s,ra1l Firuaish staff under Colonel }ilr.Ul;.r.Ilttr/r, also colleborated. quite cffectively iving hints. Thr.rs it found. out that thp systons used. in differcnt countries after sone tir"ie eurergo.l 4gain in otlrsr oountries. 1.,ater onl the stritrr systei: was ap.plierL in such a eonplicated. 'way that work becane hogreIess. It vras not alranC.one,1, hoverlerl until the last phase of the vrar.

7.

Blitish Systens. a) Inter.:iei:!,r!ii9nle1.

Thp cod.e book was for-rnd. in Norr,'ayr and v1ork was started by the Luftvraf'fe und.er VOEffiIE. OlGi/Chi aollaborated. vrith the truftwaffe, but only to a smaLl exbentr osieoially as the solution of the figure book took raonthsr a,nd. tho ncrvs containeil in the telegrares vras not only antiguated.; but aJ.so of not nrrch intercst. The solution iequirer). quite a 1ot of te3.egrails, and you could. break in by stcreotypi.c beginnings, rvhich were flrrnished. generously by the Navy esirecia1ly. The work 'mas C.one b.y writing the respective telegrans one beLo'n the other and. bringing their into relation to each other. /rt first 5 to 7 telegrarls were necessary for this vrorkr but later on tl'ro telegpnns lvere suffioient. Frovided there was naterial enoughr llith stcad.y ue31 the uihole figure book could bo solved.. ,,

'l

t

,r

..,-. *1

i1-1.1

'

1

111-.1-

DECLASSITIUD

I,.

Authoriry

vy prfitns out,ir4!fuf: b) l+-letter

TOP SECRET

coite, not enciihorcd. (i,roirone ).

[his oode (]1. Code) which vias replaced. every four years $ras Ln corabination with the ;ir-erican Gray Coc.e the stancard. wcrk oi the iulgloArierioan d.e1:,artr:iont until the outbreak of the vras. Enery tir:e it vrras replacecl, it was solvcil. thc last coly.l.ras founC. in Bffi,GEN. c)

-Governr:rent Telegraph Codc.

Ihis cole was at harr* in various original f bolieve, nt S.IIOMKI.

vehich was found.r

B.

'*-fhat work on

girher jle.chines

oopios, tho

last of

wa,s d.one by.glf,i/ghi_anc. by wtroir ?

'Jork on oj.pher riachlnes !,as C.one by HIIdtISNIIfilyl s soction. This soction ha1 practieal results in the Japanese systen (a type cf, rastcr systen, i;erhaps enciphened), .,zhich r.as solvod. r-tith tha aid of nachines. This systen vas solveiL by profossor IffiBER. of HUETIEI,T{,IINIs section. tfixat erse they vorked. on, r c1o not lonovr, but they ha.,J. no rosults in anythi.ng el-se. fhey worke:'l- with a 1argc staff on strip cp-her.

9.

Did. you ever hear

of ?yFex ?

Yesr I have heercl of it as Type X, but I ceJr only ::ako very va€ue staterients about it. VOEffiEE of' the Luftvyaffe lmell about TJrpe Xr- andi of courser ffiTET1EMLTIN lonew about it also. V0EC,aIE had been-in Ind.ia and. sone sa"id' he had. vrorkcd with fncLian trr-iagi.ott and vas ablo to nlook through nattersrf as if by r:agic.. Sonevherc there r.ust ha\& been a copy of Typ X Hachine, either in OKi[/Chi or the luff,;rnffe, but I rlo not tmovr-anythiir! about it. fhis nachine rr&s oapturoC. at ilINKLlK but it ceu-re to tlro 5,:roSrer section only a year lator because no ono hed. knwvnwhat to c1o with it; I do not knovr rirtrathor ii hafl a].I its parts; but this 1.j.o lmo.lv for oortain, that this e5i:ston v{as nelrer sol-vod. ancl that Ofi,/Cni nover worked. on it,

this tyir' of nachine oour,1 be sol-ved.. optird.ftioq I yras the nan of Hatters. HUETmMT,LIN anrl VOEGEITE d.icL not Trork on this nachine syster-i togethor. If it hail been vlorked on at OK,;/Chi, f would harre lcnown lt bocause I alwa.ys insisteC. that this tylc of ;iachino should. be flsr]
!1e vrorkeC. on this tyi:o anC. l:ras always very oK;;^hi who had to L6ntact voEc,EIE on such

Lnportance.

{0.

Did, you errcr hpal

of lhs

tt.big 1$rerioar i.ie,chir}er ?

Ngver. I nev-*r have seen an" j.nericr.n nachine. ris far as f lmovl, nobody lorev; anJrbhing about the /g:rerican irachlnes. ije alvuays suspected. that the iipricans viere using thc ilegslin nachines but f never silv an i.ilerioen nachine ha-C. a systut.:, tc cListinguish strip s;rster:s ffoi.r i.iachinc by letter statistlcs. For instenoc, there ha.j. io bc an outstan,l_ing frequency of onc lctter - which letter ci;1 not .-iatter. This ;iace the d.istinction 'bcti';:en strip systcr:.s ancL the ;-:achines but 1rersonall.y I l-ilas never certain thet this systei_l -vyorkcd" exactly,

i{IETTENIIIIN

sJrstems

11,

9an y?u dqsc+b" thc .s,olution of the ,'uJ,io"ican Strii, Syst"io ? Oncc I sSoke vith KUNffi, HLfETTitrNIt:iIN and. V0EGELE about ttre soLutlon of thc /u'rcrican strip sJrsteil, but as r dicL not work on it nyself, r cannot rens:rber the cLetails of, tho solution.

Pleaso turn over

DECLASSII ITlI, nutnoriry uy

TOP SECRET

F.d

foN*.A

Date

'*,.-=-To

I 13,

knov

knor:lg

of the Enigna,"

t "1,n

exiert ln

Do ygu lqnov ar{ytrBng r;bsut_qcnr:an

Nothing

14-

,you

iihat

vhatever.

vuas

Th:is

ti:c rclation of

'',,/as

Gcrr:ian machines vas iTEIIZER..

tclglrin}e.{:

?

another r-1c;artrcrlt

OK,,/C-hl

to.thc

..]:rvohr

of cfi,/chi.

?

In the first Farsr lrc lircru absolutcly 1o1-cnd.ent upon thc *bvehre in later Xcars .we tcnd.e,-t i:iorc to Oru+/fn i. Ihc chief of fn T and. oi lyt msv (wehrnachtnachrichtenverbinoungT,;,as'i*cntica"l in 1u.i"i-y"ars. :lr: fhc counend. vras thus

.I

I t t

:

i irBSt

f

OKH

!

I

1,Try I

)f

'

1

I

I

i

d ;tz

I 1

ltF I *6

1

ii

on,/6rri

i 1

a rrejy snall staff which oxlstcd. r.lainly irapori fn tcchnical natters, OKi'/chi .vras suboriinaterl to rn 7r ow:.ni on to the fact that the chiefs 'were the sai.ro. This state of affelrs 1rL nev€r erearl and. this r-vas because 0lfi ho.'i- no trool's unicr its coinana; onquite paper OKri was ',;rT'$t wae

Narv an* Luftvaffe, but:r:..:l"..flll Decause at ha_L no troops

in fact it

h,.a

notrrini to

\ I 1

f

t

il

say

15'

IIISI is- Your oi:iqion of other C*r:ran crJrptolocio organisations 2 a) i^nuswacrti8e? .int: The lorsign Office lrorke:i on the sano naterj.a1as@/chi"ott"-boi*tJ.,,intensc}yvliththe6but the lead'ing nen such as sGltlurr.f;ER anc. 1LSoHKE 'werc antiEratef,.. KUN6 of the Foreign 0ffice Y-t* a ca1.e.ble .*.:- iris section solvecL the strip oJr1iher. .4.t thc end., they uorlcd. neorly ""n with thcir vho].e staff on ths otrlp cJrihcr an.L in the oihcr countrics alid. littlc of eny fuportance .

b) Forsohunssar:t: Thc.grorschunisar.rt hac'- a si.lalr starFf,, all of thco1J."6noffiaian"tr,i"3"fi'..;;"i"""ovtthi:rachinec1phers.

c) 0mil+.-Sff_EI: The Nr_vy wasr I think, efficient, but vrhs.t thov sorvle Eft*oF-[iiilffiT;oroitio. of the r:achines rust havc {!,Iso bcon nothing. c') Luftwaf,fel rn the trrftvaffe, TTDGEIE vras the outstand.ing or*. f v0EGEIErirrcffis"ro-rii*buthe""i'-r,o,dworkernotvlithstand'inp:.t rr'as He in ny opinion better than HUETTENrIAff because he harl th";;;ill3itre for this natter. fhe per,31r, 0Ifi:;.Fd-0rc."I/cht f or the aaad.enlc t54pe .whereas voimfn of ths luitrurr"h+ I ""rryl,roiuu"o"u f:a.r nlir".[ui'rvortce,f &l-one, I{e hacl a.stafy of 7o to-toO p*opi* ili-lh"'.Jr]t;';*t.1i"g m&n was VOEGEI',E, rvho was not only heacl of trie-orlanipj-iion jii *n" I but who -i"tr.-;; htuserf "" I Ttri's was- in contrast to fummn ana HIlErrtrI\iIIAli, ""trurT.,, 'rork had. the.organisation vhon but vho .tld n";[in; theraselves. ffr"y''t.[ rr'r Jin I und.er thorr who actually d.id. the viork. E

I

*)

e) gg&J, the viinter 19L1-19t+2 offi/rn 7 haa'sucaess vrith Dr.d^.:^Jl fol-Iow HussLan systens., and oould. the irt the tir:re of il* il;;* offensiv., om/chi 1:Iaced. its iusgian llussiens. st*ff at the 3isposal of rn 7 and the d.iplomatic matters vere not ';;orked. on at that tine. In hae organisation scatterecl about Europo, ancl so r do not knov exact)-y7aboutits its or its successes. sTErl{EERG vrho cane f,bor rn 7 to 0isr;hi-il'1g43 pople vrould. about these ilattors. He rvas rast'in the &o Argr,rNe, HT

i#li,

.Ci ;;

'*-::FIF-'T

DECLASSI}IEU

r!tr

e,utnor;ty{.0. uy

foNmA

5.

TOP $ECRET

of liaison uith cth)r

Euro: oan crv'lrtoloriic

Date

'..hat

lOr

d.o .you imotu

) {t"fJt

ltaly

l:ad a

.

}arie staff but it liveci

irincip,Ily Ol$'I/Ctii an* the lta"lian 'burcau co11c,'l.roratefl but the one :dstruste;'1" the othcr affL thercforo the really i,iirortant'things lrere irithheld. on both sides. by

thcft.

fr) Finlana!.: The Flnns hac. a. slal1 but effiqient staf'f." Ttrey were well'tra il,{-In the r:o'lern senoe of crJ1'1e}ogy; }:ror their sl,ze anf. consid.ering their noCest r-rootrre1 they lrere bette:: lhan OI(/Chi.., HeLnut SCHTILZ lras once in Finlancl and. Lmots the sta.ff by na;:e and. i:er$on. The 3'inns garre ii"rportant hints for solving the strip oilher an.l this lras the reason that SCHLIL2 vrent to Finlan3. o) ]lgggggI:

The ilunAariahs nere unLnportant.

very sr;alL anL the vork like

The

tc nothing.

staff

Has

d) ir.uFtria3 Tho i.ustrians fiere \rery good., os;:eci.aIIy in the Balkan sSrstells,--EEIFtsRT, L0CI(6R, IJ.ILCVIC oa;ro to the CprHan brreaux fboi.t lr.ustria. BulgarLa

and.

Spaln had. no cr;4:,to1ogio

staff,

e) Jalun: ..bout Jalran I cAn on\r guesg fbor-:, ooffespondence wlth their that they had. a etaff but did, not knor,r hor to Tork. fhey lirred., like the Italiansr r.rainly bt' theft; The Jal,anese vet'e ablays 'fbank with us, 'i,:rhoreas the ltalians alt/ays clouble-drosseci us. I have seen HiiT..*SHr and. icrev that he brought cod.esl etc.r to cK,-/chi but this r-rork wes

17,

canied. on through

...rrel

do_

F,ENNER.

yog knov about the EnSIish an;I UniteC. Statos

cryi;tologic

i ;

jV

.rbout the English crJry:tologic bureau i.n ,-ioclern ti,.res I lanow have reac. yard.leyrs Alggk 0ha;:ber in the ronerican'ecl.ition ji" but krroru nothing ii3re. ',ihateverr-lr.'ie-FEnr-1e-u-i1ll6It kistory of crryptogalhy / was tol:l us by mltMR,.

nothing' r

{

J

18.

Have

youiiver hearcl of a ;,ub1ic Europcan crJrJtologlc orcenisation

Nor'nerrer. .!s & ,.'ler-,ber of the exiort and. irrl:ort business, f alread.y before 1936 had. invented. a tal:Ie systeir for cond.ensing telegre.r:ie vhioh rras very effective. This riras uEed. by the flrn .ilf?eA ZUSS:,ri'Af in ILJI9639. It ',v66 a private ood.e anci i;ias not registered. sinco at that ti:ie one d.i3 not have to register co,.leg. Later i.t vras forbidden.

19.

,.,ihat

is your olri.llion .of the €ff.egtiveJess -o{ oK,,/0id ?

To ansr-ser th:ls, one nust J.istinguish tlet,iveen two niethod,s of encii,hernent., rn ttre ord r:rethod, cKi,/chi ruas rrcry effegtirre. rn the nev uethod. of raohine encipheri:entp CKIlChi haii veiy 1ittle iuccess. It .1* ,+f opinion that the solution of the nevr s;rstens lras hanlrred. Uy .ttre burea;uoracy and. the too aca.i.enioal 1,oint of view vrh:ich r;ras held Uy trsnmA anC. HUETtENiiliflY. IEN!{ER hl:rself had. not attended. a uni\rerslty, anfl that

for his too krigh opinion of an aoad-enician lii* . @-M as*++ffiN@&--eeu}"d.

perhaps accounts

HIIEITENTIL.E{.,

"not sucoeed. at OKJ/.chi ior--this. reasonr.

i. lack of real cooperation ar:long all the G€ruan cryi,tologic or;;anirations greatly [5s,nureC. the effecti:reness of each oce, It io nry oSlnioc that all the organitations should haye been gathererl into onel but thls vuas not possible beoause of the ;.ersona1 atrbltiofi of the hearl ",'l

.i. rl

tt,"r. :[Ir,:-

7

DECLASSIT.'II'I., AuthoritY uy

prN*.A

TOP SECRET

7.

Date

of, each. In splte of the cl_ose collaboration with the psr,eitrr office t only in ttre Last year v{ag ttre vork ;;t-;;i,ilJ"tuL. :.:hat the other organi8ations'were no one tatev sinl;-;;;y organfiatlon ioiog, surround.ed. itself with

iecrecy.

within oK,I/chi itself, there was no collaboration always suggestecl thai tir" ctrieis--or the speclal between d.epa"rt;rents should give out eetifrs of their ,roi,ii"i ,rou1.j prof,itable be but this sug6estion ,u* ,rJ*"-""""1tue.** ;;;;';as a notable fault vithin OK,,/Ctri. Even

seotions. r

Hower,p",

,it

ffie5 v*;y*r**t-$-zG;*oirilcrri 20,

'-,.'h"t

should. be statecl

,,;-;;;;

that in in inventing

Juccessrul.

and buiLdins

r:fi. you lfiow about the,ryiH,sgeraet?

C.o

t h"ou seell the Hius8"":i:::.working in a-t:ig hal1 in oKVChi, cannot rerae:,rber h?t-th;;'worked., il"; also seen the Hol1erith . naohines ln the :luswaerti$es j.r.rt C6.r'6ni-u""e these Hollerith .and nachi:aes for its gwn vork. o*"r/ani ;i; rru i,o"r. ffi ror tire';.u"w*rtiges Ant whiqS roquirect the use or-iii1I"*"i*r.u.* but

I

21.

,

OK'.'/Ctr:- i::achines and, cl.ocuncnts verc llivid.e,:l into tr:ro classes; d,ispensable and. i.nd.is1.ens"b1":-Dis;ensabre aocu*nts anrL rrachlnery l'rere'novecr. to JruEttsaaong *,r r"o,, th6re i"-irru-s"h11ersee at the end. of l9lrl+ and' the beginning i lg+s. tirey were throrm by -r ord,er of iI'EimlER Into tfre ra:ce a,, i" d"r,ii"rsee toseiirer. was there and. isrovi thls for oertain' rt uoulcl not uu ,ofi;-;hi.i" rooKl-n6 for looking Ior thes( these d.ispensable C.oorrijents.

rndespensabr-e d.oor:nents, anal

i-iere evaouatecl together ?Tlu*ry t" n'J,r,a/J/r:.ra ana tren 1"" irnimm -,rhere they destroyed und,er ttre eyeG-fy'li.iliou* t";;i;-or'iir" 'rere ;ifter the su*end.er, i.,re"i"ari';;":e? oar,i past theJrd. i.,miy1 I be11ew, train i,,iruiu"0KLi/ch:i personnel vrere anil. dirl. not &isturb it. o;,*.ii.A" a large fire and. d.estroyed, the d.ocrnents after the surrendor. Alout the i:rachinery, I do not lctolv, but-'T,oLER of the.f"1*ru"u section who"is now aJn interpreter rorow.- rt ;; Gil1; ;il;-;;",.*"hi,,us *"* r,iaa*n iX iHrff"H:ru

r"ith the lersonnel

22,. a)

ffi

r

n:o:i"s"l;,,$'ltff#ffi,:ff3f"rff:#I*xT;"u, -t_

of i'*fi/ because ho iqceiil hov to

.

ri." was typiiai or th. **. .ob"y. He iaade hil.:seIf, rid.isulous.;uith m"uri particularly at $ttIE in the last d.ays of the "i""ches, stated. that OKi/ohi l,[as the rtiretellectu"i "*-"fr"".i.e

oiiE ott and. *"""oiposec1 of ndefaitistsrl and. that it vas the fauit -of these i:i""-Inrt the yar had, not been won earlier. He r.ras cqwincel]. tfrai gerraanJr would lvin the r,rarr even llr the rrery last also statecl nas long a.s we ihasos. He rirrer we,shall stay in-:mRlrNr'. Next day we began to fiow. He was ki.nd.,natrlred. but stupid! ,ii-"r_,f.*Our and his eriire$sion was r,rithiyt'1rt.ii"ig;"o". of authority, stoutr

He had shoit hei6, a la Hindenburg. He nainta:inea ;;';; o"[, rri" Lack of undsrstancr,inc. He was uan-i,ri"it*t ,or,riri,.* irlazi an* worse than arty Gauleiter.

b) fiiiEl,

tHtrr.,BIffiEil,r Both uere conpetent ttrrc EFTGIT ft wa.s. typical- of thei-ien of tho agreeable irussic$ 1rlazis that Ihey Sot ilC-of the co;rptent nen, both being han6ed nSte" the atteuit"of iOtf, rury, 191/+-

rilF' | {rI

.:--. r:51].-?*l=-

DECLASSI}TET.,

rOP

6

Or

SEORET

-l

6) SfUrEts: i. ty1,icaI troop leailcr an:r.,one vho lesj:isocl tlro - {ntel1ectuals, ]Ie uias not in the right JosLtion, thou5h nay

harae

been a good nan

battle flont.

he

in his olln sjhorc, iresur:ably on the

d) iigerrT@i: ii failure in ev,ery activity. rt was ty1.ical of the r.ran that at the en,r. of the var, vhcn l-Je l'rero at sctu,,mnsm he ord.ereJ. the othors to go lo ,;ffiBtftrN to Join tfre__.:a:nlart of oKj/ohi, and h!:isetf vitfr a carloac. of ihocolate ancl iigarettes C.isai:i:eared.. This

-rvas or.rr

lea*er

I

e) ggl{]'q8: _i. wly d.ifficult characier. Ho knew the f\nc.a;.rentdtof the q11 school crJt:togralwr c,:nd,.vas & good. or3anLser. sli:o 'i-'Jas &n i,ritriguer, to pe o;1o .,rrhoi.i he ritee he was 1ay he fbank and. kind., to others he vas rrery ornnlng - a d.ii:1orat. 3$'{NER l-r,as wry suscel.tible to flattery ernil a i:leasait uiay, ..* oonfiri:ed. i.yotestant and. anti-Irlazi. i;hen 1 3oirre,l Oin*/OLf, -FENNER to1d.'i"p that the offiaial greoting r:ight be Heit i{fTUER, but that in or,i/Chi only ,Good. l.lorningrr ias ised.. ffi' Lluch

trouble beczuse he was an anti-Ili.zi.

f) Roiffifv: ROIffiN l?as a r-ran of very shy ancl tinid nature. He had. bern last in the ,rng1o-:i:ericen seotionl but wlpn the others left f,or the Forsohungsant in 1)JJ, ROimN becai::e heaC. becauuu h" was the only one left. The porro*n;ealit -_lld. not talce hit ],:ocause he was lnconlrtent. He harl heart troubre a,c. .was siok. rt was lr*is wish to be an engine ilriver ard. he cai:ie into off,Tcirf-onfy by ohanco. He is quite unintor.lectual-, a Llan vithout any interests, ind an enenlr of rI[NNEi].. He'ane Jtr$il\ER rived. in the saue house for years together but c1id. not s1;eak Jvord. to oaoh other.

e) Elil€q,. Pr: DENIGR oa.nnot nevBr worked.

say anything of ini,ortanoe beoause hB on al$r oode and. :.ia no{ bother about organisation, He was a linguist and. nothin6; uore. IIe is a tragic Iig,r"" .beoause although he belonged to the Nazi 3arty1 he rvas-not a Nazl in feeli-ng. ' I{e was a tyi:ical *intelleotualr r:an.

h) ',,FltuE$q: "mNDLd\D workec. exclusivery in the trans;osition fterd. of ilrgoslav trafflc and. in this fi;u .iiasr a \rery fi:re expert.

reliable character. i) ffiSERT: ;i slok nan, but one who ]me.!rr tho funAa,,,en#3of orJrptology better than fgNNER. SEIrERg 'uras a and a 1*"sGi"t fr , nature. His t.no sons anct 'ilif'e were 4efaitist Seail-. ,'L

J) solt''@El:

for hj.s oun i.;€rsorr Sofore sc&lmEr *.rri*", ;;;-ilui ool:lnr vas in oharse. He was d.lsnissed. and g661ggp6 built u1, tfn-a.iofrirrr* on u. moaerr, styro bu! _:in reality they virere the sa,le. scliaBnEL vrent every .h gogd..lqopagand.ist

;I6EIET charge of ti,e

$ay to GD,0'&ER anc raarle a report on the ne1?sr He had. no speoial lmovlodge but oollocte{ the material anl went to GI}ilt[.,R witJr it. s0IniEuEI, was a smart lruslness nran vho 'built up his oirn eosition.. By lirofesslon he was an archaeologist.

k) "* S!ffiHgi_]r.Jun}ryr of the ord. schoor. Erz,ery d.ep.artnrent ga,re von &$C}GS[EIN translations and. he hanied. them tL a i.e!,artnent of tho

Staff' IIis Job was quite unlr:riortant but beoause offiser he harl'a oertain ,ui,,rt*tiorr.

C.eneraL

was an

flease turn ovor

he

DECLASSIl.II!.I., Authoriry

ey

F.0 li^'

I

.

o

2xnnt'out"'J/l$12 25,

?op

I

sECRET

trtoia whon of your forrner assooiates have you heard. since the end of tEe l-r,ar

, SIEGFRI]D ;0St, BERLIN, :,iUAmUSOOnf'/ 49 III bei SURIdI lrho is a foriner uernber of RO]IENtg section, This qan can glve the ad.d.ress of Dr, SCFIULTZE, a menfuer of HtfEfIENniII1ts seotion. I receiwrl this letter on 17th 0etober, 19t+6t the flrst I have had. flora hirn. KOIiSTTNZERSTzu,Sffi

I

have heard.

fron no others

and. have haC.

no oontaot vyith

of the former colleagues exoept sorae glrls of ury ov{n sta*e suoh as seoretaries. I wrote IENI,mR a l.ostcard. at HIiIIGEI-yjER0/SIREE but anyone

receirred. no ans!:rerr

2t+,

-om ii,r? ygu, intelested. naturo

?

in any 4u{!Irs1

work

€ a oryptographio

I ara not a nathor,ratictan and raodsrn cryltology need. mathematicians aniL teohnicians, Therefore I an not qualific.rl. I had already c.eoid.ed that r vrorrld not continue in this i:rofesslon beoause r Lavu no f\rture in it, and f wanted. to becorne a sohool teacher. I Joined O$/Ohi only because I coutd not hold a school l.osition beoause f was not a

gaai.

25.

think that any of yorr"fon:er colleagues iaight continue tnorr t?ofk m cr$ltologJ, ?

Do you

rryouIcl nev€r d.o sol nor HIIEITENILTn'. lG**. is not an enterprising '{EI,[DL.]{D r:ran. i,,mNzER ancl sogtl[z are not anbitious but FtsIr0{ER is and. has alread.y e:cpresse,l hiarsel-f as t'rilling to work with ths Amerioans against the i.ussians. IENNER ig an organiser

IIIIETIENHaIN and.

an anti-Bolshevist

a*s

rreII as an anti-Nazl,