Transcript WHY MENTORING? THE NEED FOR PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND LEARNING Podcast Interview by Robert Holmes with Barbara Anderson
Male Voice:
This is the Coach Mentor Podcast proudly brought to you by Frazer Holmes and Associates making the most of your greatest asset. This podcast covers a wide range of topics related to the coaching industry. Interviews with industry leaders, coaching experts and exploring areas of expertise closely related to the coaching industry. Here's your host Robert Holmes.
RH:
Hi and welcome to the Coach Mentor podcast. Today’s episode is entitled, 'Why mentoring? The need for personal and professional development and learning'. We'll be exploring why coaches need mentoring and ongoing developments and we're talking to Barbara Anderson from Shire Coaching and Training today. Barbara is one of Australia's few Master Certified Coaches (M.C.C). She was the ICFA coach of the year in 2008. She's been the Australian coach credentialing leader since 2005 and is currently the director of professional standards for the ICFA. Barbara is an executive, business, leadership and personal coach. She's a partner in Towards Mastery, an associate, trainer, assessor and mentor for the Results Coaching Systems, a trainer and mentor in the Neuro-Leadership group which we'll be talking about a little bit more later on and on the executive committee for the Asia-Pacific Alliance of Coaches (A.P.A.C). She has a passion for mentoring and training other coaches. So, now for the interview. Hi Barbara, How're you doing?
BA:
Very good, thank you Robert.
RH:
It's so good you could take time out of your schedule to talk with us today.
BA:
I'm looking forward to it.
RH:
Brilliant. Now, it turns out that we share a passion for neurology in coaching. You know the hard science behind changing human performance and I'm hoping we can include somewhere in our chat, the visit of David Rock this week.
BA:
Yeah, absolutely. Happy to talk about that.
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RH:
Brilliant, we'll Schedule him in there somewhere. Why don't we start with your own journey into coaching? Everybody has a different journey or story about why coaching became interesting to them. Can we go back to how you got in on that?
BA:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank You. I was doing, really, a training role, so teaching, facilitating lots of the soft skills, time-management, leadership skills, and etcetera. And getting frustrated because, people didn't actually change and do anything differently. And I know especially in many of the programs, they’d come to the course, they’d say it was great but if you went and visited them, a month or two later, the messy desk person was still the messy desk person and the one that turned up late for meetings still turned up late for meetings etcetera. And so, with a colleague we started talking about how we can deliver this training over time and perhaps even a bit of one-on-one. And we were trialing that when at the same time I heard about coaching, which I really hadn't heard about it before, back in 1999. And I was also doing some personal development work at that time with landmark education, I was actually a volunteer coach on a program and then I heard, wow you can actually make money out of this and train to do this and really make a difference to people at a bigger level. And, I signed up for the Results Coaching System program back then in 1999. And David Rock was my trainer. And he was really, just starting out, I think I was in the second intake of participants at that time.
RH:
Alright, so for listeners that aren't familiar with Landmark or Results Coaching, can you give us a bit of background on those?
BA:
Sure, so Landmark Education people can google and have a look. But, for me, it was a transformational personal development work. I have a whole variety of programs and I've done many over the years and that was probably my journey back in the 80's and 90's. I think everyone has their journey and that was what worked for me in really growing myself. And, in Results, now called the Neuro-Leadership Group, delivering Results Coaching Training Systems originally started as Results Life Coaching, but again people can look up the Neuro-Leadership Group really is the newest name for that training.
RH:
But before neuro-coaching became one of those phenomena, I guess, does the name say it all, the results coaching are sort of action oriented.
BA:
Yeah, absolutely. Even though the coach training developed being, we're talking 13, 14 years ago, it's still really the same, it's just now we can prove why it works. And that's an interesting thing about the recent happening in neuro-sciences as well as the general coaching research.
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RH:
Fascinating. So, your early passion for helping business people, I guess that continued?
BA:
Actually, my early passion I would say was, probably just helping people, not necessarily even business people. In fact, I had a big corporate background and back then it was, I'd like to get away from it. But, I cycled back, and that's why now I do what I call personal or life coaching as well as business coaching and executive coaching. But, now I'm back working in a lot more organisations. But, yeah, the passion certainly, I know I'm in the right place doing the right thing.
RH:
So, I guess you mentioned over there. So why don't we talk about the Neuro-Leadership group, they're having a conference in Sydney this week or workshop.
BA:
Just to distinguish, sorry Robert, because it's the Neuro-Leadership Institute. We're having a summit in Sydney this week. We're having three around the world this year, Sydney is one of them. I think there's London and New York. Each year they usually have one, but this year they're having three. Now, David Rock also started the NeuroLeadership Institute. It's all about the Neuro-science and last year as an example in my continuing education, I did the certificate in Neuro-Leadership, under the umbrella of the Neuro-Leadership Institute. I was talking, before about the Neuro-Leadership Group, which is actually training coaches with the brain approach. They're two different entities really now, although both started and headed up by David. They’re both to do with education, but one's the education of people who want to use coaching skills to become coaches. The other is more focused on just the Neuro-Leadership and how the leaders can use a brain based approach. Not necessarily a coach training programme.
RH:
Absolutely. Thank You for distinguishing that. So, podcasters can no doubt go and look up David Rock, his books are all available on amazon, including his new book, ‘Coaching with the Brain in Mind’. So, a fascinating read here. So, tell us about your journey into becoming accredited and how did you ascend the lofty heights of becoming M.C.C.
BA:
Oh, thank you. I think back again, back in 1999, when I first trained, I just knew now this was me and I think 'If this is my new profession, I'm going to take it seriously and do what you need to do'. And even in the year 2000, I attended my first International Coach
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Federation Conference, which was held in Vancouver that year. I straight away just wanted to continue learning a whole different variety of ways and models and to just be serious. For me, the International Coach Federation, it was the organisation world-wide, that doesn't offer training of coaches, but is the over-arching body for the, if we call it the profession or the coaching industry. So, I joined immediately. I went to Vancouver for my first conference and I think I've been about 15 since. And I've spoken with many too. And then, I was on my journey, so you have to start counting your hours of coaching and counting your hours of training. So for me back then, people who don't know, but, there's three levels now, which is Accredited Certified Coach (A.C.C.), Professional Certified Coach (P.C.C.) and Master Certified Coach (M.C.C.). When I was going through, there was no A.C.C. so the first level to go for was P.C.C. - Professional Certified Coach, which is 750 hours of coaching and 125 hours of training. So, I set my sights on that, that was one of my early professional coaching goals and I can't remember the year I gained that, but I know then I carried on. It takes a couple of years and I carried on and it was 6 years ago, 2007, that I got my Master Certified Coach. So, that was building on the coaching hours, building on the training hours and then of course, there is more to it, but applying and getting assessed and bailing the first time. Going back and improving my masterful coaching skills and I've just renewed, every three years you need to renew these credentials. I've just renewed, at the end of last year I renewed for the second time, which is why I know I've had it now for six years, six and a half years.
RH:
Obviously, there are personal benefits from going through that process. You become assured within yourself, you're mapping yourself against international standards. I'm wondering about commercial benefits. So, have you found that having that ticket opens certain doors that might otherwise be closed? What are some of the other things that come from getting credentialed?
BA:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that's happening more and more, even over those six and half years that I've held the credentials. Certainly, I feel more confident. And then you can put your fees up, speak them confidently and quickly, say and do that. More and more though now we are hearing that organisations are getting it, themselves and asking for certified coaches, might not always be ICF certified, but they want some form of proof that you’re good. So, I think that journey still continues and its part of us as coaches, in fact educating our buyers and great work happening around that with documents like coaching in organisations that a lot of people did a lot of work on in
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2011. So, I think the shift’s still happening, but yes, generally, you can put your fees up, people acknowledge you’re a more senior coach, etcetera.
RH:
Yes. I certainly know that, say if you got into the game of coaching a local counsellor, for example, a local government, probably wouldn't be asked, but if he was the mayor, and he brought you in to coach the whole team, you get asked the question if you might work with. We do work in the unemployment field which of service agencies, you get into one hub, nobody asks, you get in with an organisation, and further up the organisation they start asking, and certainly I feel like it has tremendous commercial benefit if you want to work for government or if you want to work with big business you're going to need certification nowadays.
BA:
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you. Say, if you want to go in a bigger project, that's more important.
RH:
Why don't we turn to probably the core of the reason that I asked you for the interview was, just to talk about why coaches would seek and how they would seek getting mentoring? So, we're out there running our own business, maybe we've been in psychology or counselling, we're just getting into coaching, we realise we don't know it all. We go to an ICF conference or something else. We look around and we hear all sorts of people talking about things. What's the journey into mentoring?
BA:
I think we can put it at least into two categories. So, one is the coaches who know they themselves want to get a credential and it's in fact a requirement of your application. That you must have at least 10 hours of mentoring by another ICF credentialed coach who's at least a level higher than you are applying for. So, that's one reason that anyone else, like me just knows I want to go and get a credential, they need to go and seek a mentor coach. And the other reason people turn up it's just, they just want to keep getting better, and even if they're not on credentialing par. And to bounce around ideas, reserve more experienced coach really. Most though come because of the credentialing aspects for mentoring. I know, we're going to move into the difference for supervision in a minute. The second category might come more for the supervision.
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RH:
I guess the people who are on the journey to wanting to become credentialed are going to need that, especially with the ICF, they're going to need some level of mentoring. They're obviously going to have to be the grade above you. Are there time requirements?
BA:
The time for all three levels of application are minimum of 10 hours of mentor coaching and seven of those hours could be in a group, where the group size is no more than 10 people. So, there's a few fine prints around that, and again you're just to be clear the ICF's definition of mentor coaching is someone being coached on their coaching skills against the 11 ICF core competencies. So, it's not about coaching or practice, or your own personal or business goals. It's all around your coaching skills against the 11 core competencies.
RH:
Brilliant. And, one of the helpful resources that's at the ICF website is on the virtual professional development section. I believe they run for M.C.C., P.C.C. and A.C.C. Each level has 'Inside the assessors head' which is a brilliant recording giving you an idea about somebody being coached and somebody else listening in as their mentoring and reviewing them against the core competencies.
BA:
Very good, you've done your homework.
RH:
I dialed in to you reviewing somebody else, so that I could sit my exam, which I passed thankfully, for the P.C.C. So, I found it incredibly helpful.
BA:
Oh, that's good. We do, do that. We've offered it thelast couple of years, usually three times a year and someone of an A.C.C. level, so you get, we get a coach online who's about to apply for their A.C.C. they bring along a client and they coach, as you heard, for half an hour and then the assessor on the line, gives them feedback against the 11 core competencies. I did one just recently for P.C.C. level and I've got another one booked in later in the year for M.C.C. level. And as you found out, they get recorded. People come online, I think we had about 30 people on the call the day we did it live and then you can purchase it afterward as well. So, it is a great thing that we've been offering people the last couple of years, it's very similar to how I run some of my group mentoring, usually one person does coach another and then we all discuss it and give feedback and then ultimately I give the feedback against the 11 core competencies as an assessor.
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RH:
Why don't we mention that just now, I'm aware that you run groups, I'm guessing they phone in groups or Skype in groups? Tell us just a bit about that.
BA:
Yeah. I started some years ago and we get a group that would work together. There are four or five or six people, but sometimes that's too hard to work out. So, what I do now is I offer one or two groups per week and people let me know if they are going to join, usually by the Friday, today. At the moment I’ve got the groups at 10 am and 8 pm on Monday but that depends on peoples preferences, I can change that. And usually there are two or three or four people dial in, but you may not be with the same group every time, but it doesn't to matter. We just design the call in the first few minutes. Usually, somebody coaches someone and of course even the person who's playing the client always get value because he gets free coaching. But, our antennas are really on you, listening for the competencies, listening to the coach and the coaching and then I will give my feedback, you must always bring it back to all about an M.C.C. level or that was A.C.C. or you would not pass on that or you would pass on that and there's practice, practice, practice and highlighting the competencies really never and learn, as well as if people come on call, Oh, I've got a challenging client, or I've got this question we designed and that is usually a fifteen minute chat about something that someone brings to the call as well.
Rh:
Beautiful. So those mentoring calls where somebody is being reviewed, there's chatting, discussion, lots of interaction about it and I think, one of the other things that you offer is the one-on-one reviews. So if you going for your exam, send me a recording for review to the standards and then give you direct feedback.
BA:
Yeah, absolutely. Up until recently, your application needed a letter or a couple of letters, depending on the level, to say I've heard this person coach and I recommend them. Just now, as of 1st of July, they are changing that a little bit that the A.C.C. and P.C.C. levels don't need the letters anymore. But, M.C.C. level does. But certainly yes part of one-on-one time for people can be make your recording, I'll listen to it and give you feedback. And then you are pretty confident that if you send it in it will pass, because as an assessor and mentor we know, we can tell. There's a few M.C.C.'s in Australia who do that too. Sometimes if you need two or three different views I'll recommend a couple of my colleagues as well who can do the same thing.
RH:
You've mentioned psychology and supervision, so, why don't we talk about that now? Of course mentoring and supervision at least as we're talking about it now are two different things. Let’s scope out the difference.
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BA:
This will be interesting for your listeners to what they perhaps think and I don't know if there’s a really black and white answer, but being part of the professional standards team with the ICF, we have been looking at this over the last year or two. So, at the moment I see us say that we want you to have mentoring and that on your coaching skills. Of course we know from the psychologists' world, they have supervision and really what we say is coaching supervision is different to the psychologists’ supervision in a way. But the coaching supervision, here's the ICF definition, I'll read it, 'Coaching supervision is the interaction that occurs when a coach periodically brings his or her coaching work experiences to a coaching supervisor in order to engage in reflective dialogue and collaborative learning for the development and benefit of the coach and his or her clients.' Now that's a bit wordy, perhaps, but we could always send it out if people wanted it. But that's our definition, but really for me in my language, the distinction is mentoring is just on your coaching skills against the ICF competencies or against some competencies. Supervision, is more talking now about really the interaction with your client, and the relationship with your client and how are you being in that relationship. So, being able to reflect on ‘What did you do?’, ‘How did it work?’, etc. which is bigger and different, although, I think there's some overlap to just working on your coaching skills.
RH:
Where would one pick up a supervisor and do they have to go into the workplace with you, are we recording the interactions or observing them?
BA:
No, that's a good question. This is different across the country and across the word actually. We know that the English and the Europeans are way ahead on coach supervision than the rest of the world. I think coaches who come from the psychology background do this well. Some coaching organisations get together and call it peer supervision. So, they might sit in groups to talk about cases and there's many different ways of doing it actually, I don't think any right way. My own way has been to have my own supervisor who I took on out of the U.K. to learn from in two respects. One is a supervisor is also about becoming a supervisor. We really just talked about my cases, about my clients and where I was at with them and all that. She never sat in on any, listening to me coach or anything. It was a discussion - one-on-one discussion. And that's more how I help others as well, but, there are many different ways that this could be done.
RH:
So, just to get a mental picture for that, this is you as a professional, you're a coach, you're running your own business talking to somebody else about the work that you do. So, you may talk about the details of a particular client’s life. But you're really stepping
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back from there and talking about chewing over, discussing as a professional, what you were doing in business. BA:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's totally confidential, of course, but the supervisor can assist you may be thinking of different ways you could work with this client that you might not have thought of. It's all about reflection and self-awareness and I think in organisational coaching it’s also understanding the bigger context, the whole systemic-awareness and relation-awareness, so, it becomes, it helps to balance things with others.
RH:
Absolutely. One of the things I love about the coaching industry is you've got to smoke what you sell. Before you become a supervisor, you've gone and got supervision and that's amazing. So, you mentioned that the Europeans are ahead of the game, where does Australia fit within a global context of coaching as an industry? Where do we fit?
BA:
Okay. Just to clarify, I think my comment about the European’s is their ahead of the game in their commitment to supervision. And, for us in Australia at the moment, we've worked on this paper, in fact nearly two years ago, saying we think this is the way we have to go, but we don't know exactly how yet. And, our Australian paper went over to Global ICF, and they're working on a similar thing. So, it could be that we see in the future this requirement for supervision. And, they're talking, 'How do you work that out?' and it might be, for every, I'm not making this up but, for every 50 hours of coaching you do, you should have one hour of supervision, to talk about it all. There was some guidelines around that, I can't remember now of the top of the head, what we recommended. It's still all up for discussion. But again, it depends I know there are some coaching brokers if we call them that in Australia who, if you were a coach through this brokerage you must attend so many peer supervision sessions. I think Sydney Uni, which is where I also did one of my programs on my journey to coaching psychology, I did the Graduate Certificate. But they have, masters, etc. They have a mentoring supervision group too, that you can go along to. If that suits you in Sydney they meet face-to-face. Many as you've said before happened on the phone. So, there's all different ways again.
RH:
This may be a rather trial, When you look at say McDonald’s, Australia is known for innovation, so, we came up with McCafe, we came up with a number of the small shop front delivery down the main street of Sydney. Those ideas were generated here and then sent back to head-office. Are we known in Australia for anything in the coaching industry?
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BA:
Yeah, I think the big one that's coming to top of mind, was the work that was done in Australia for this 'Handbook for Coaching in Organisations'. Because what they did and I wasn't directly involved, but, we brought together buyers of coaching, people from big organisations, we brought together some trainers or owners of coaching schools, the ICF had two representatives, etc. People from Sydney university, I sort of lead it. Michael Cavanaugh did a lot of writing up of this. But anyway, I know back then, 2010-2011, the world I thought, probably exaggerating but, the world was watching Australia and what we were doing around this. People could go and buy that and it's a saleable document.
RH:
Can we have its name, again?
BA:
'The Handbook for Coaching in Organisations' and it's a great paper document, quite large, for organisations to have because it just got all the clues about buying coaching, really, and all the definitions, comparisons. So, that work, we had to be careful how we spoke about this at the time because it wasn't this, wasn't a professional standard because of the standards committee. You buy it through Australian standards.
RH:
But it has now become an Australian Standard 332. So it's A.S. 332, Coaching in Organisations.
BA:
Oh! Very good, thank you. Because at the time, the first year it wasn't, yeah, that's right, and now it is. So, I think that something, an example from your question of how Australia dreamt away, I can't think on any other of the top of my head.
RH:
Brilliant! I mean it's good to know because if our European cousins have got the supervision thing down. I mean, that's how this industry is, it's very networked. We worked together, Asia, America, England, I haven't heard of anything out of Africa, but I'm sure, that they'll contribute to the industry too along the way. I wonder, just turning back to mentoring other people, whether you had any stories or testimonies about your own mentoring of other coaches, anything you found particularly rewarding or any stories out of just spending that item with coaches who are coming along the way?
BA:
Great question, I mean I do find it really personally rewarding and I love when I get that going, 'Yippee, I got it!' And you know they’ve copied me in on their letter. So, absolutely, I mean this is one of my passions, and probably not a third of my business, but, nice portion. And just yesterday, I popped into the Neuro-Leadership summit in the afternoon and lots of cases, lots of people there I knew. And one fellow as I walked up to say Hi, he said, 'Oh! I was just talking about you,' such and such. And I said, ' All good I hope,' in my joking way, and he said, 'Of course, I was raving about you as my mentor
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and how much my coaching improved in the time we worked together'. One of these examples was, so many coaches learn stock standard questions in their coach training and they're fine, and even great questions, but it's about the timing and this fellow said to me yesterday, 'What I really got was just the presence, when you focus on your presence, the right questions will come and sometimes I know I have to ask the stock standard question like 'What are you thinking?', 'What's your thinking about that?', but it comes out at the right time.' Whereas the newer coaches that's just come out of training asks these questions they're not necessarily, exactly where they could be. So anyway, I diverted perhaps a bit, but that's rewarding to me, running into someone six months later, he's now got the credential and he's still talking about me to someone else, that's pretty nice. RH:
Yeah, not at all. That's the sort of thing that makes us get up in the morning, when you know that you've contributed positively to somebody else's journey and they as a result passed the exam or got their accreditation, fantastic. And then you bump into them later, and they're still talking about it.
BA:
Yeah, it's pretty good.
RH:
So good, so good. Well, I'd like direct people to the end of the show-notes, if you're listening to the podcast, you can go to the show-notes on the podcast page and see a direct link to these products that I'll mention now, but if you want to dial in and become part of one of those eight-o'clock-in-the-morning or, sorry, ten-in-the-morning and eight-o'clock-in-the-evening mentoring and discussion groups, you can go directly to shirecoachingtraining.com.au and look for mentoring for coaches and I'll provide the link for that. And also in a Towards Mastery workshop at the towardsmastery.com website the credentialing workshop, where Barbara provides that hands-on assistance in getting you across the line for your credentials. So, in closing is there anything else that you'd like to say to our audience?
BA:
Thank you for that, Robert, I appreciate that. That Towards Mastery by the way is where I teamed up with my lovely colleague, Belinda M also a master certified coach, so we offer or can make one day face-to-face and we train in mentoring. So, that you just mentioned at the end, no I just wish everyone well, and you said there's coaches and non-coaches listening to this, even those non-coaches, I'm a believer in the more we use the coaching approach, if we want to be really basic, just ask-vs-tell. We know what works in our lives and our roles as living beings everywhere and I think we can always keep that in mind in knowing that that's also beneficial for how our brains work and
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how our brains are different to other people's brains. Love to hear from anyone, if they need any support and I thank you, Robert, so much for the opportunity. RH:
You're absolutely welcome. Just to tag in on that ask-vs-tell, asking is part of the coaching modality telling I guess could be compared to more of a training modality inside an organisation. Coaching isn't in competition with training, it's a different way of doing business. Are you finding that people are sort of getting across coaching as a way of doing things more?
BA:
I think so, and I think especially in the leaders and executives that I work with there's still a way to go. Because there's so many leaders who just, they know the answer so they want to tell the people the answer. But that's not best supporting the growth of the people. So, I'm working on a big change initiative at the moment in a big organisation as an internal coach on a contract and I know, maybe some of the listeners. And this is one company, and many companies are 'How can we get our leaders to use more of a coaching approach. And knowing its situation and knowing there’s ones who do have to make a decision and tell. But, we also know there's evidence now that using what I label as a coaching approach and it's about 'how can I ask you to think more and come up with your own answer in thinking rather than showing you my answer’.
RH:
Absolutely. And if only work places would embrace that, supervisors, managers, I think we would see very different outcomes.
BA:
Oh absolutely. I think we're all on the journey but I think that it just doesn't happen overnight. As you said, you can train this stuff, but, until people go and embed it and practice it and make mistakes and form their own new wiring and their own new habits it takes a little while.
RH:
Well, thanks again, so much for your time, Barbara I know that you're a busy person, not only in your own coaching business but mentoring and training others. It's been brilliant. Thank You.
BA:
Thank you, Robert. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.
BA:
So, we look forward to you joining us again for the next podcast in the next interview we'll meet Belinda Bailey from the Global Coaching Academy to discuss clear coaching and the role of vulnerability and feelings in coaching. Go to the podcast page as I said for
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show-notes from today and links to those organisations, businesses and resources that we mentioned in the discussion with Barbara, so thanks again. Male Voice:
You’ve been listening to the coach mentor podcast. Find us on the website at www.frazerholmes.com/podcast. Join us next time for another exciting installment of the coach mentor podcast.
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